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 Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read

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GreyFuss
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PostSubject: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:58 pm

Greg Collins has written a fine article about adventure gaming over at JA. It is a very good read especially for those who have played these games from the beginning.

Patience, the Forgotten Virtue
or, No Help Wanted
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Faust
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:12 pm

An interesting read GreyFuss !

I disagree totally though , when Greg states that those who use walkthroughs are cheating theirselves , & that walkthroughs take the challenge & satisfaction out of a game . I use walkthroughs , & I find that they aid me in enjoying the game . Then again , that's my opinion .
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tsampikos
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:30 pm

A really interesting article. I agree with Faust though! I generally avoid using walkthroughs because I try to do everything my self. If I get badly stuck though, I will take a walkthrough hint. And, yes, that doesn't take away any of the joy of the game. I wish I had the whole time of the world in order to play my beloved adventure games, so that I would try to solve everything alone, even if it would take a whole eterniny. But that's not the case. I agree with the writer that the newer games are easier than the older ones. And I would add the following. That the 1st person adventure games, especially myst and its clones, are more difficult than the 3rd person ones.
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hatshepsut
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:40 pm

Thank you GreyFuss it was a very interesting read. I'm not not that walkthroughs don't serve a purpose but there is nothing like the satisfaction of solving a difficult puzzle on your own or that duh moment after discovering an overlooked item. I relate to Greg's comment about spending weeks or months on a game as I have many months and weeks invested now in Shivers and Slip Space. I also have a fear that eventually developers are going to drop puzzles from games. I love the challenge of trying to figure out what to do with whatever situation the developer has presented me with ( oh no the door just shut. The door handle is gone. Hmmm there's a window but I'm on the 10th floor. Good grief my inventory is gone. How am I going to get out of here ? scratch ) In the older games you would find a doorknob that didn't fit, a length of rope that wasn't long enough, a ladder with half the steps missing and a saw. You use the ladder on the window, well rats you can't reach the steps to go up and you can't go down. Well let's cut the ladder in half, of course now it's to short. Eventually you discover an attic door. Yep the ladder fits, but there isn't a handle maybe the door knob will work. still won't open, maybe if I use the rope. Sure enough that did the trick. Now that was a challenge. In todays game your character would just tell you what to do. I'm not saying that todays games aren't good or entertaining, they just lack the challenge.

hatshepsut

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mindysue
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:22 am

A fine article indeed, like dear Greg is saying (at least to me) that he knows what will benefit me better than I know what will benefit me! No way, because I have made the journey from text adventures to casual games and it has been quite a trip. Having the patience to solve a puzzle after trying for days, oh yes, I've been there. I still can remember the excitement of finding the Orat part (Space Quest) when my husband and several of his co-workers in the electronic lab were looking for it also. I found it by accident when I got stuck and could not move Roger forward, I typed LOOK and behold, there was the part on the floor at Roger's feet...and I was the hero! Great, however memories like that are not what makes an adventure game meaningful to play. It was an exception that made a great memory and I'm still finding them today, walkthroughs and hints don't stop me from playing my way.

About that first walkthrough when Greg got stuck and found out he had simply missed seeing an obvious drawer, and felt so let down and disappointed. I get the feeling he blamed the walkthrough for lessening his enjoyment of the game, but I think maybe he was really angry with himself for missing that drawer, and blamed the walkthrough for showing him his error. Since it was obvious, but he wasn't seeing it, I think there was a blind spot in his way of playing at that point and he might never have seen it, which would have meant he never could have finished the game at all. So would that have given him greater enjoyment? I have had help where I kicked myself for not seeing the obvious, but I don't blame the help because I know I really did need it. No brain is perfect and sometimes the obvious is the hardest!
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lakerz
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:49 am

Part of what makes me turn to walkthroughs is the fact that there are so many games I'd like to get to I'd like to not spend 10 hours trying to figure out one puzzle, LOL. I try to give it an honest shot, but my brain likes to malfunction often.
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tsampikos
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:40 am

The fact that we may use a "walkthrough" to solve a riddle or stop being stuck in a cerain place does not mean that we do not solve the game on our own. On the contrary why should the player think with no logic in order to find a solution to a riddle which has an illogical solution? I have written it n another thread too. If the game designer fought with his wife at night, got ungry and made a sick puzzle afterwards (whatever that might be, music riddle, a crazy random riddle etc.), the player doesn't have to get twisted in order to solve this. That's why there are walkthroughs available. In order to help if something is going wrong, if a riddle is illogical. Walkthroughs are TOOLS not spoilers if they are used in the right way.
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Faust
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:57 pm

tsampikos wrote:
The fact that we may use a "walkthrough" to solve a riddle or stop being stuck in a cerain place does not mean that we do not solve the game on our own. On the contrary why should the player think with no logic in order to find a solution to a riddle which has an illogical solution? I have written it n another thread too. If the game designer fought with his wife at night, got ungry and made a sick puzzle afterwards (whatever that might be, music riddle, a crazy random riddle etc.), the player doesn't have to get twisted in order to solve this. That's why there are walkthroughs available. In order to help if something is going wrong, if a riddle is illogical. Walkthroughs are TOOLS not spoilers if they are used in the right way.


Agreed ! I see a walkthrough this way , as a tool .
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hatshepsut
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:44 pm

Just my opinion but it seems reasonable that if a developer points you in the direction of a walkthrough or writes a walkthrough then they consider a walkthrough as a tool. There have been points and puzzles in games that I needed a peek at the walkthrough. There have been times that I had to follow it step by step. There have been times even following a walkthrough I couldn't get past a particular part or puzzle. I never felt cheated or sad that I needed a little but I did feel happy that I was able to finish the game.

I agree lakerz, so many games so little time.

hatshepsut

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jkeerie
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:57 pm

You know....if I had all the time in the world to sit at my computer and play games, I might wait a day or two before consulting a walkthrough for a little nudge. But I don't. When I do look at the walkthrough and realize it was something I should have seen ( a missed hotspot, a misinterpreted clue), I get upset with myself for missing the obvious. However, when the solution is totally illogical such that I wouldn't have thought of it in a million years....I feel vindicated...and thankful that I didn't waste the million years thinking about it! Very Happy
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tsampikos
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:55 pm

@jkeerie

I fully agree with you! This is exactly how I think when I am in the same situation. You know sometimes, when you are tired the brain is not fresh and this may be the reason for missing the obvius solution for a relative easy riddle. In that case, when I realise that I am heavily stuck I quit playing, and I continue the following day, when my brain is clear again. And it usually works. Wink
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hatshepsut
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:39 pm

I agree JK. Very Happy

hatshepsut

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jkeerie
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:40 pm

Yah, Hat and Tsampikos. Who's got a million years to just waste these days!? Very Happy
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tsampikos
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:02 pm

If I would win in the lottery 3.000.000 Euro ( I think it's enough money) I will quit working and I will be professionaly involved with adventure gaming. Which means writing reviews, playing, buying all the games that I like, travelling to meetings etc...... not bad eh? Nice dream. Smile Sad
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hatshepsut
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PostSubject: Re: Patience, the Forgotten Virtue or, No Help Wanted A fine read   Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:41 pm

You got that right JK. I can't find time to do everything I need to do let alone waste any of that time.

Nice dream tsampikos. I think that's every gamers dream.

hatshepsut

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